the better to hear you. >> that's good news. congratulations. i think you'll be very disappointed when you can actually hear the show. dan, what else you got? >> nathan writes long night of introspection. never fall for your best emotional introspection. never fall for your best friend, folks. >> that is deep. i think we should do a follow-up e-mail. let's get in touch with him. "morning joe" starts right now. ♪ that is a good word for you, joe. good morning, everyone. >> we're listening, mika, to the bee gees. "how can you mend a broken heart," which a lot of people don't remember. especially of a certain age. i'm sure richard does. that the bee gees were actually an extraordinarily successful group that wrote phenomenal

ballads like this one throughout the late '60s and early '70s before they really created a sound that defined an era, the 1970s. >> absolutely. it is monday, may 21st. welcome, everyone, to "morning joe." with us on set, we have the executive editor at random house, pulitzer prize-winning historian and "time" magazine contributing editor jon meacham. >> longtime bee gees fan. >> plus, the president of the council on foreign relations, richard haass who is sort of obsessed with the bee gees for a time there. that's okay. my mom loved them. >> go ahead. let's give them the news. the world is mourning the death of robin gibb of the bee gees. the band of brothers dominated the airwaves of the 1970s charting six consecutive number one songs starting with "how deep is your love," which went

to number one on christmas eve of 1977. it was the most successful run of any act on american charts since the beatles in 1964. their songs propelled the "saturday night fever" sound track to number one for 24 straight weeks on the strength of songs like "stayin' alive" and "night fever." it was the best-selling sound track of all time until it was finally dethroned by "the bodyguard." the brothers' relationship was tumultuous at times, who's isn't, and robin and brother barry. robin battled liver cancer for nearly two years. he died sunday at the age of 62. >> you've got to help us out. >> yeah. >> they sold something like 200 million albums, but to a certain age, a certain generation, they're almost a cartoon version of the 1970s. and they're jimmy fallon doing the gibb brothers. put them in perspective as a guy who understands rock 'n' roll.

>> the thing is, disco was -- i mean, richard will remember this, back in the 1970s, i think the chicago white sox had a night where they went out and they burned disco records. and so the bee gees were lumped in with some genuinely horrific acts, but they were extraordinary songwriters. and at the time it wasn't my type of music, but as i got older and stopped being a snob about music, i realized just like richard carpenter, you know? when the carpenters were selling so much in the early '70s. you go back later and look at the songs that were written, extraordinary. the most extraordinary thing, though, willie -- and you can only say this probably about four, maybe five music acts since '55 -- they defined an era. they defined an era. >> that's the way to put it. >> you start with their song that went number one, "how deep is your love." christmas eve, 1977. at one point i think they had

three songs in the top five. three songs in the top five. no band has done that since the beatles. and they completely -- you know, you hear, you know, slim wittman, he gave us the sound track of our life. no, these guys gave people that were coming-of-age in the late '70s the sound track of their life. they were everywhere musically. and i think richard haass, just showing the other side of it, they also -- >> show your range here. >> -- they also enabled a lot of horrific fashions on people like donny deutsch. we wish donny were here. but you know, new york city, 1977, 1978, studio 54, i mean, it was -- it was, again, spun out of these guys. >> it was quite a look. >> i'm just picturing richard haass at studio 54. >> no, he never was. >> i couldn't get in. >> talking to mick jagger and liza about nato expansion.

>> i thought richard and the helsinki accords when he saw that the bee gees had something to offer was pretty formidable. >> willie, speaking of mick and studio 54, we've just got to say it off the top -- mick jagger, and we've always known this about him, he's a hell of an actor. i laughed out loud more at mick jagger's performances probably than the other character all year other than, of course, kristen wiig who left. jagger, man, was funny. >> he was good. he was good. >> he was so good. on the game show. >> the game show was his best character. >> oh, my god. >> password. >> i knew a guy like that once. >> he's performed on the show many times. and lorne michaels has said he's been trying for 35 years to host the show. he finally got him to do it for the finale. he sang three songs with arcade fire and jeff beck. >> i don't know how old he is. >> foo fighters.

>> he's in incredible shape. >> he's unbelievable. >> he still sings very well. the karaoke scene. >> that was great. >> i mean, if you haven't seen "saturday night live" from this past weekend, you need to go back. >> go to hulu and watch it. >> you can watch it on huli, hulu, on apple tv. >> this is an insurance convention, and mick jagger is one of the insurance adjusters sitting there saying i'm too embarrassed. i couldn't possibly get up there. >> he's, like, that's not mick jagger. they're all talking about him. >> you know, he's a good actor. he's got good comic timing. he's very funny. >> he was very good. we've just got to say it, at the end of the show, they're having the finale and everybody's happy except sudakis is not smiling. he's angry. jason sudeikis, he was going to say good-bye.

but i don't think lorne michaels was ready to say good-bye. did you see the steam coming off his head? >> you know -- >> and by the way, he didn't have a skit all night. >> no. no. >> that was bizarre. >> it was bizarre. i thought the tribute was great to kristen wiig. and we're going to show that later in the show. s sudeikis wouldn't clap or sing. then he kind of left. >> angry. >> but they can't lose him. he's mitt romney and joe biden. >> and by the way, it's good for him to stick around through the presidential campaign. when they're having primetime specials. >> yeah. ask tina fey how that went. it's good for business. >> it's really good for business. and don't worry, you can have your movie, you know, you can have your ""macgruber" which

might be the most underrated comedy of our time. is there any news? >> i don't know. i hope there's enough stuff left we can use. >> we just flushed it down the toilet. >> i want to see more "snl" later. >> it was sort of a parody what happened out of newark yesterday. you talk about backtracking. >> okay. we'll go there. >> seriously. >> newark mayor corey booker -- >> we've gone from disco to the '80s with michael jackson's moonwalk where they go backwards. >> did you ever learn how to do the moonwalk? you ought to try it right now. >> i don't believe that. i think you probably did. >> newark mayor corey booker is speaking out against political attacks from his own party. on "meet the press" yesterday, he criticized the president's re-election campaign for going after mitt romney's record at bain capital. >> i have to say from a personal level, i'm not about to sit here and indict private equity.

to me we're getting to a ridiculous point in america especially since i live in a state investing in companies like bain capital. if you look at their record, they've done a lot to support businesses to grow businesses. this kind of stuff is nauseating to me on both sides. it's nauseating to the american public. enough is enough. stop attacking private equity. stop attacking jeremiah wright. this stuff has got to stop because what it does is it undermines, to me, what this country should be focused on. it's a distraction from the real issues. it's either going to be a small campaign about this crap or it's going to be a big campaign about the issues that america cares about. >> wow, that was very courageous because you always hear, you know, politicians just meekly lining up behind their leaders. this was actually a very courageous thing for cory booker to do. and i applaud republicans when they're courageous and speak out. so that was great. >> yeah. >> very good. >> he got a lot of praise. >> did he?

>> from senator mccain who tweeted this, "thank you mayor cory booker for the straight talk this morning. >> that was straight talk. >> booker also took to twitter, quote, i will fight hard for obama to win. but just as his '08 campaign did, i believe we just elevate and not denigrate. this is the obama i know. >> all right. very good. so he's standing by his -- that's great. all right. >> yeah, sort of. well, there's a youtube address that happened later in the day. >> stuck to his guns even on youtube. that takes guts. >> yeah. he sought to further reaffirm -- >> i'm proud of him. >> -- his support for the president. >> there's not enough of this. >> let me be clear. mitt romney has made his business record a centerpiece of his campaign. he's talked about himself as a job creator. and therefore, it is reasonable and, in fact, i encourage it for the obama campaign to examine that record and to discuss it. i have no problem with that. >> wow.

and that was really -- >> it's a hostage video. >> that is the definition of a hostage video. can we see that one more time? >> where are all the state troopers? >> no, the troopers were out. the guys with the sword. look at that. seriously. >> a newspaper debate? >> if you look, he's sending morse code with the blinking of his eyes. willie geist. >> wow, willie and i are all in favor. >> oh, my god. >> holy cow! >> we think the phone call came in before he left the studio? >> yeah. oh, it did. the e-mail came -- >> on the way to the airport. >> the e-mail came while he was still in the studio. >> if you read his twitter feed after, he doesn't totally pull back from it. the hostage video. >> that's a hostage video. >> but he still says it serves the economy. >> and in statewide races. >> and by the way, richard haass, most democrats that fund

the party agree with cory booker and not with barack obama. >> exactly. >> and not with barack obama. >> and a lot of people who are going to vote for barack obama are investing in those pension funds, are investing in their i.r.a.s and invested in wall street. the idea is how private equity and wall street are hostile to the 99% is absurd. their fate rises and falls with private equity and wall street. >> and by the way, jon meacham, i know this will shock a lot of people, but when bain capital invests wisely, it helps bain capital. it also helps teachers unions, public employee unions, it helps firefighters, i mean, bain capital makes their money by public unions investing in them. these big -- whether california or new jersey -- and when they invest wisely, guess what? it's public unions and private investors who profit. >> absolutely. well, it's disappointing about the hostage video -- >> boy, that is kind of sad. >> -- out of newark, by the way,

does the fbi field office know that they've got those guys loose in newark? >> how is that supposed to mitigate on "meet the press"? i'm confused. >> it makes it much worse and it underlines the fact how bad the white house's position is on this. that they had to stick a gun, i mean -- >> stop it. >> claire danes, i think. >> claire danes did that. >> what's disappointing about that, i thought the most encouraging headline in a long time was most of the nato leaders at camp david were talking about growth, not austerity this weekend. >> right. >> that was totally a move in the right direction. the president was striking a tone about, you know what? we can grow out of this. we can actually create as opposed to cut. and it made all the bipartisan commissions, all the tough things we have to do, it began to put it in a context of this is about a stronger future, not just a leaner future. >> right. >> and then they send the guys

with the guns to newark. >> yeah. goodness. rhetorically speaking, of course. >> of course. we think. we think. >> we think. mika, while you talk, can we show the video one more time? >> no. >> i just want to show it. >> this is a classic. >> i can't look. i won't. i like cory booker. >> what group do you think took him hostage? >> cory booker -- >> oh, my god. >> they didn't even have the dignity to frame him up. a little head room. >> the laptop open with the big words from axelrod. >> he got really nervous when they said they were going to cut off his head. >> stop it. >> they're just talking about the framing. >> what he ought to do is go to chris christie because they have a little video together and get advice on being a hostage. okay. leaders from the world's richest -- >> go ahead. hey, do you know, mika, leaders of the world's richest nations met this weekend at camp david for a g-8 summit where president

obama pressed europe to shift away from austerity measures to solutions aimed at creating jobs. >> that crew was aimed at angela merkel who has been an advocate for european austerity. this morning in chicago, day talks of foreign leaders begins as nato works out the timetable for ending the afghanistan war that has lasted more than a decade. members of the 28-nation alliance are expected to endorse a plan to hand over control of combat operations to afghan forces by the middle of next year. the majority of foreign troops will leave the country by the end of 2014. president obama met with afghan president hamid karzai to reaffirm the agreement which the two leaders struck in kabul just a few weeks ago. >> now, did he have to buy some -- did the united states have to buy some opium from afghanistan, richard, to karzai to play ball with us? >> it was less than successful. the united states is losing control of nato over this issue

because we all know we're getting out. we're at least drawing down dramatically. the question is how fast and all that. plus it doesn't help when the pakistanis won't agree to continue supply routes, essentially holding nato to ransom. it's very hard to keep control because essentially the administration has decided this was a bad bet. they're walking back from the large buildup in afghanistan. what you're beginning to see is people are racing to the exit. this is not a successful policy. >> richard, what do you think of the story that the obama administration planted in "the new york times" yesterday where they talk about barack obama decided in 2009 this wasn't working? that was the most ham-fisted story in "the times" i've ever seen. he screwed up by tripling the number of troops and now they're claiming it was all part of a bigger plan. rex reed called it laugh-out-loud funny. i was at my breakfast table yesterday eating cereal, and i

started laughing at just how obviously planted that story was. >> and it didn't work. to say the least. it doesn't persuade -- the obama administration, as you said, tripled u.s. force levels with the surge and decisions they made essentially within the first year after he came into office. now they're winding it down. but again, this is thousands and thousands and thousands of troops, over 100,000 troops ended up in afghanistan. we've had probably -- >> and it didn't work. >> and it didn't work. and that's the bigger question. >> by the way, we're not second-guessing, we all said in realtime he shouldn't triple the number of troops there because it was unwinnable. >> we got ambitious and now they're talking about afghanistan good enough, exactly the opposite of ambition, but we never needed to do this. we could have had a modest approach. especially when vice president biden was arguing, the policy of the administration has essentially gotten back to but in a roundabout way after several years of surging. >> mika, the lasting image of

the g-8 summit was, you know what it was, don't you? they were all watching champions league football and tim and i were at the holiday inn on 57th and 11th, cartons of cigarettes. penalty kicks were amazing, but they actually had cameron who is obviously supporting chelsea next to merkel who was supporting bayern munich. and i know for the three americans who watched that game, it was an extraordinary match with chelsea winning just in case you were up. actually, you know, the numbers have been getting huge in america. i'm telling you. i'm telling you. 20 years from now, they're going to look back to "morning joe," and they're going to say, i'm like the carl marx of american soccer, i was a guy that wrote about it in 1848, and look what's happened. >> i think they say that already. i heard it on youtube. >> you have nothing to lose but your cleats. >> always has been to be a winner until there is a winner in that game. >> what game?

>> always. soccer. it won't be. >> it was here. that's the great thing. they had a penalty kick. it was extraordinary. >> drogba? was it drogba? >> it was drogba. that's very good. or as we call him around our house, joey and i, snoop droggy dog. we also say the drogtor is in. >> that's good. >> he's an amazing athlete. it was a remarkable game. mika, can you get one more game in? one more story in? >> i'm trying. facebook founder and ceo -- >> how did that go? >> he had a very good week. he got married. >> thank god he knows a few bankers. >> just a day after taking his company public on friday, the 28-year-old billionaire married his longtime girlfriend, priscilla chan. >> it was great. >> guests arrived -- >> he looks relaxed. >> for what they thought was a graduation party for chan who finished medical school last monday. she's cool. but instead they were treated to a surprise backyard wedding

ceremony. and in true facebook fashion, zuckerberg announced the nuptials as a status update on the social networking site. how old are we? that ceremony seemed to go much smoother than facebook's ipo on friday. there was a traffic overload at nasdaq. and the stock price gained just 23 kwents for the day. >> here's the thing. and i'm not cynical, but a cynic would say he got married the day after his ipo flopped. >> stop it, he did not. >> so we were talking about that instead of the ipo flopping. anybody here follow that story? did you follow it? because richard haass, it was going so poorly for him that the banks -- >> morgan stanley. >> -- morgan stanley especially, they had to backstop this because it was going to lose money on its first day. so the bankers furiously had to start buying up all of this facebook stock. by the way, and you know where they put it? they got the stock certificates and they went back and put it right next to e-pets and e-toys.

>> i thought they put it in the tiffany boxes and took it out to the wedding. >> maybe they did. but they just threw it in the fireplace and burned them because that's what it's going to be worth. the bottom line, we said all week it was over valued. people should watch this show instead of "mad money," and we'll show you how to invest. and the truth is the banks had to furiously buy up this stuff because if they didn't -- >> yes, they had -- it will be interesting to see what happens this week. they can't sustain that. increasingly, there will be a flow, people will buy and sell it. my hunch is you're going to see downward pressure. >> my guess is it's going to level off at about $28. >> really? coming up -- >> write that down. and it will be worth as much as your stock certificate. >> we had people on the set friday saying, you know, it's going to go to $50. on friday, it's going to blow up, so don't get in on the first day. wait for it to come back down. it went up 23 cents.

>> willie, in 10, 15 years, kids that grew up on facebook are using it around the clock, maybe it does. i just don't think -- i don't know what the advertising model is. you know, we have facebook for our show. and i go on it once every three months. you don't even think about going on those ads. >> yeah, i can't even get my arms around facebook, i'm sorry. >> it didn't help that general motors announced advertising on the eve of the ipo. that did not help. >> this has been truly like popping popcorn with the top off. >> take that as a compliment. >> that's great. >> i don't know. >> i love -- >> a patch right here? >> put it right next to the food you ate this morning. coming up, david ignatius joins us. i don't know if he will after watching this. also harold ford jr., chuck todd. >> still can't get over chuck's

"jeopardy!" performance. first, bill karins with a check on the forecast. >> it's almost like we're still enjoying a beautiful weekend, but things have changed in a hurry. it was so nice in so many spots this weekend, but the east coast will not stay that way. we also had a storm in the middle that spawned tornadoes. this video out of kansas, very impressive. this storm had winds up to 140 miles per hour. look at that. this guy was only about a quarter mile away from the base of that tornado. so ta storm system heads east today. also, right along the east coast, we're dealing with a tropical storm. can you believe that? we actually had tropical storm alberto form. it's a very weak system drifting out to sea. not a problem for anyone. can you believe our hurricane season has started already? if you're heading out the door in central new jersey, northern new jersey right along the jersey coast just outside of new york city southward, some heavy rain moving through. even a little thunder and lightning. that's probably the worst drive out there this morning right

around southern portions of new york city down the jersey turnpike. so the forecast today, on and off rain today. it's not like the weekend. cloudy, cooler and damp. thunderstorms late in the day pittsburgh, buffalo, detroit. the gorgeous weather is in the northern plains where you suffered this weekend from those strong storms. you're watching "morning joe." rain on and off and drizzle in washington, d.c. we're brewed by starbucks. [ male announcer ] when a major hospital

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♪ 27 past the hour. time now to take a look at the morning papers. "new york times." men increasingly are breaking into fields traditionally dominated by women. according to -- >> it's about time. >> -- that doesn't mean men are displacing women in those fields, but nationally, two-thirds more men were bank tellers, two-thirds more were waiting tables and twice as many were receptionists in 2010 than

they were in a decade. >> the glass ceiling is coming down. >> secretary of state again. >> one day. it's been a long time, though. >> it's kind of an interesting piece about the economy. anyway. >> who was the last male secretary of state? >> colin powell. >> colin powell. >> before colin powell. all right. "usa today -- >> warren christopher back in 1934. >> there you go. >> "usa today," the united states has agreed to sell drones to the u.s. navy. that sounds like a plan that couldn't possibly go wrong. in an effort to protect oil exports and growing tensions in the persian gulf and to strengthen u.s./iraqi ties. "the daily telegraph." the caption says "prime minister david cameron finally has something to cheer about." the photo shows cameron next to president obama and angela merkel watching saturday's champions league soccer match at the g-8 summit. chelsea beat bayern munich on

penalty kicks. at least there was a win. and cameron was even a politician about that. saying, you know, we were working hard. >> oh, stop it. >> watch the game. >> angela merkel slipped off so we all had to slip off. come on, man. >> just being a human being. >> yeah, be a human being for once. >> the story of the 20th secenty is england being triumphant. >> let's go to politico, shall we? >> yeah, i think it's best if we do. patrick gavin has a look at the "playbook." good morning to you, sir. >> i think the world gets all their soccer news from "morning joe." it's the only place i hear about it. it's a great service. >> jon meacham then puts it into a broader context. let's talk about your report this morning, asking the question, will 2012 be the dirtiest campaign cycle ever? don't we ask that every campaign

cycle? >> we certainly do. and that's why we have a question mark on there. >> ah. >> sort of covered our butts on that one. the interesting fallout from last week's news that a super pac was considering drudging up this reverend wright news all over again. it was sort of the first counternarrative we had to the assumption that these super pacs which are flush with money suddenly coordinate with the campaigns. this very much was sort of a rogue effort by this super pac. the question i think a lot of folks are wondering is, will we see another instance like that during the cycle? meaning some millionaire or billionaire throwing their money in on a message that's provocative but not coordinated with the party. even though it's maybe just a one, two-day story and as you saw last week, the romney campaign ran for the hills and distanced themselves from it, it does seep into the nation's consciousness and does become a little bit of a story. and all these candidates will be asked, hey, this is coming from your side. how do you respond to this? so i do think there is a little bit of a difference this cycle

compared to last cycle where you have some of these interesting billionaires in the form of sheldon adelson without much coordination with the party which kind of flies in the face of what we thought was happening with a lot of these super pacs. >> jon meacham, of course we all complain about campaigns being dirty. if you put an historical perspective on it, i still think the dirtiest campaign in u.s. history was really the first contested campaign going back to 1800. right? i mean, we have a long -- this is meek and mild compared to what used to go on in american politics. >> well, the key campaign ad narrative, counternarrative, i'm not sure what we would call it now, was that the federalists of new england said you could have john adams and god or thomas jefferson and no god. so it's kind of hard to say that's looking for the middle ground. i'm trying to create a cultural compromise. >> and a couple decades lady,

mama. >> where's my pa? >> gone to the white house, ha, ha, ha. >> yeah. the early stuff was quite vicious. and in fact, you could argue that the partisan newspapers were, in fact, like the web. that you had blog -- you had pieces -- >> hold on, mika's laughing. you want to just call us nerds right now in >> yes. >> i'm sorry. >> actually, that's not the word. >> this stuff is very fascinating to us. we're not dorks. >> you want to talk about soccer again? >> no, i want to hear about this. come on, now. >> you had a partisan press which would reproduce, republish. and patrick knows more about this than i do. i think you could argue that the 20th century was the exception, not the rule in terms of an attempt to have a bipartisan media. >> very good. >> all right. patrick gavin. >> we love patrick. >> thanks, patrick. >> thank you, guys. see you later. >> i'm going to be tweeting a

picture that you're going to want to look for. >> i thought you got rid of emma. is this the one you decided to hang on to? >> no, she ate the other cat. she kept him. >> stop it. >> i know. i hate that. >> it's a good one, patrick. >> all right. see you later. >> that is one crazy cat. coming up -- >> yeah, what's up next? >> we're going to do a little sports. >> grover cleveland? >> who played him in the movie -- >> ronald reagan. >> boom. >> steven strasburg, we'll do a little baseball. also, the playoffs, the heat wake up just in time to save their season. highlights of that coming up next. >> that's a shame. also, kristen wiig arguably "snl's" mvp leaves the show in style. we'll show the clip of her being serenaded out by mick jagger. dude you don't understand, this is my dad's car.

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♪ let's do some quick sports. start with the nba playoffs. game three was ugly for the miami heat. dwyane wade 0 for the first half, got in a public fight with his coach. if the heat lose, they're down 3-1 in a lot of trouble. a lot of people expected them to coast into the finals. so how did they respond in game four yesterday? let's find out. >> yes, definitely. >> there you go. here we go. wade having some trouble.

only eight points in the first half. the pacers up eight at the break. third, though, lebron and wade wake up. lebron with a beautiful no-look pass to wade for the layup. they had 28 of miami's points in the fourth quarter. bucket and the foul. lebron comes alive. 40 points, 18 rebounds, 9 assists. heat win 101-93. and even the series 2-2 going back to miami. they're back in the driver's seated. wade and james combined for 70 in the game. they had 53 of the heat's 55 points in the second half. game five is tomorrow night, as i said, in miami. the san antonio spurs won their 18th consecutive game dating back to april 11th in the regular season. they swept the clippers, 102-99. they await now the winner of the lakers/thunder series. the thunder could close that out tonight in oklahoma city. >> great series. >> great series. earlier in the day at the same staples center where the clippers were swept, the coyotes avoided a sweep, taking out the

kings, 2-0. the kings now have to go back to phoenix to try to close that series out and move on to the stanley cup finals. let's do a little baseball. steven strasburg of the nationals doing it on the mound and doing it at the plate. home run here. helping his own cause. his first career home run. second hit of the game. before sunday, he was 5 for 40 lifetime at the plate. he also struck out eight through five innings before he left with a little tightness in his arm. nats win 9-3. orioles who they beat still in first place, though, in the la.. east. >> still in first place. the orioles thought they were on their way to sweeping the nationals. this could turn into a great rivalry. they keep winning. >> it's exciting. a good friend of mine is an orioles fan. i said, man, they look good. he said, it's may. >> yankees and red sox. >> american league east. fifth and sixth place.

and one is one game over .500, one is one game under .500 . i will say this about the sox. they're putting up a lot of zeros on the board. their pitching, i don't know where it's coming from, they've got some hurt players. you look at the box scores every day. and from the third or fourth inning on, a lot of zeros. >> yanks are putting up a lot of zeros, too, on offense. >> the yankees are not much better than the red sox. they're old and bad. >> hey, hey, hey. >> i'm a fan, i'm just saying. >> no, they are. and the red sox are coming along even with ellsbury and some hurt players. >> we have one pitcher. tim lincecum, the san francisco ace, watch this. one gets away from the catcher. he comes in to cover home plate. the runner comes all the way from second and just plowed him over. wait. watch this angle right here. lincecum, the ace of the staff, boom, head butts him right under the chin. lincecum weighs about 165, by the way. he finished the inning.

he's tough. but he was lifted then for a pinch-hitter. oakland wins, 6-2, their first win in san francisco. >> it didn't look like that was intentional. >> head-first slide. i would have done feet first. he went head first. next, how super pacs are altering the business of politics. nick joins us to discuss his front-page story along with john harwood. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. ♪

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or body, enlarged or painful breasts, problems breathing during sleep, and blood clots in the legs. tell your doctor about your medical conditions and medications, especially insulin, corticosteroids, or medicines to decrease blood clotting. talk to your doctor today about androgel 1.62% so you can use less gel. log on now to androgeloffer.com and you could pay as little as ten dollars a month for androgel 1.62%. what are you waiting for? this is big news. a look at the white house this morning. >> who's here, mika? >> here with us now, chief washington correspondent of cnbc and political writer for "the new york times," john harwood. and political reporter for "the new york times," nick confasori with the front-page piece this morning.

>> can i just really quickly? b7, "new york times," returning to "the new republic," our good friend, frank for and also good futball. anyway, frank is back at "the new republic." >> we're going to get to your piece and discuss it. i want to flag another one in "the times" this sunday by campbell brown, friend of the show. obama's stock condescending to women. i think it's interesting, agree with some of it but not all of it. the promise of obama's campaign four years ago has given way to something else. a failure to connect with tens of millions of americans, many of them women who feel economic opportunity is gone and are losing hope. in an effort to win them back, mr. obama is trying too hard. he is employing a tone that can come across as grading, even condescending. he really ought to drop it. most women don't want to be patted on the head or treated as wards of the state. they simply want to be given a chance to succeed based on their

talent and skills. to borrow a phrase from our president's favorite president, abe happen lincoln, they want, "an open field and a fair chance." in the second decade of the 21st sentry, that isn't asking too much. >> she must be referencing that ad. the life of pat. >> i think as we work to, you know, promote women and give them a step in, a seat at the table, sometimes the phraseology can be grading. like oh, they're smarter than men. you say it once in a while, too. it is, after a while, it's getting old. >> he's condescending to you? >> when i say that women are smarter -- >> he says i'm smarter than him, which is fine. >> that's pretty condescending. >> it's not condescending to say what i've always said. if you want people to talk about getting things done, hire a man. if you want people who get things done, hire a woman. >> the problem is the republicans have really not much of a leg to stand on when it

comes to women, and this president has done great things. >> fantastic. get the streamers out. page one, nick, you've got a story about super pacs. >> all right, here we go. >> we don't have to read it. we've got nick here to talk about it. nick, the fact is, you've got a lot of individual players here who are going to be able to have a huge impact on a national election without going through a political party, without going through a campaign. and that could lead to some wild, wild days. >> it's amazing. if you're a consultant, right, a super pac is a campaign that has no candidate, no travel, no scheduling snafus, no candidate's spouse, no kitchen cabinet. it's you, the consultant, the ads that the polls tell you are the most effective and a couple of rich guys who want to pay for it. >> so you find a rich guy, you come up with a crazy idea, you don't have to go through the candidate's wife or husband. and they put it up, and there's nothing the campaign can do about it as well. >> yeah. in fact, you know, it used to in

the old days, if you wanted to do a huge attack, for instance, on jeremiah wright, it was on the candidate if it worked. if it backfired, if it failed. it's now on nobody. it's on some group you've never heard donors -- >> or a wealthy person. >> or this guy, ricketts. he said, that's a great idea. i'll give you $10 million to do it. >> except he didn't do that. >> except last week you have fred davis coming up with this idea that nobody wanted to do in the mccain campaign, nobody wants to do in the romney campaign, and even that made front page and sort of guided the news cycle for a couple days even though ricketts didn't want it. >> and one of the lessons, i think, of nick's piece is that we know that they're going to spend a lot of money. we don't know how much they're going to impact the election. we do know they're going to impact the bank accounts of the culla consultants. if he had put that ad up, does anybody in the country after

three years of an obama presidency undecided how they feel about obama and going to be influenced by that? i'm not sure that they would. and so i do think that as nick suggests, a lot of the guys are going to get rich off this, don't know how much it's going to impact. >> yeah, the advertisers and a lot of these consultants get rich. but if you're a billionaire, and we heard some people talking about this last week, you may not want to be the same guy or the same lady that does the same ad on the deficit. and so maybe you decide, hey, i'm going to create a dust storm and going to go after jeremiah wright or go after birth certificates or something absolutely crazy. >> yeah. it empowers donors in an amazing way. and if you're the consultant who can oblige them, who can deliver the kind of ad they want, that's business. you can make a lot of money doing it. >> the consultants. >> that's right. by comparison, we saw last year that a lot of the top consultants were migrating from

the campaigns to the super pacs, right? and one reason is the super pacs are doing so much more volume in this business than the campaigns. they spend all their money on ads. they don't have field offices, right? so the romney super pac spent twice as much money on ads as the romney campaign. >> so nick, really quickly, what's -- so what standard are we going to hold candidates to? if somebody on the far left does some commercial questioning mitt romney's faith and calling mormanism a cult, is barack obama required as mitt romney was last week immediately expected to come out and condemn that ad? >> that's probably part of the rule book now. it's kind of a headache for the campaigns. they have to now be accountable for all the things that their supporters do. imagine the opposite if it was an opponent of barack obama who ran the ad to get him in trouble. you can't control it. >> there is the bill burton super pac headed by the former deputy press secretary. there's the romney super pac by

a bunch of former romney aides, some of the ones out of left field the candidates have less to do with and it's kind of a common-sense thing. >> somebody's going to be shrewd enough to do exactly what you were talking about and put out an ad. for instance, the obama campaign loved that "the new york times" trumpeted this jeremiah wright story. at some point there's going to be some cross-currents and people who are mischievous. >> oh, really? nick, thank you so much. >> nick, thank you. >> john harwood, thank you. >> stay with us, john. willie's news is next on "morning joe." [ male announcer ] this is corporate caterers, miami, florida. in here, great food demands a great presentation. so at&t showed corporate caterers how to better collaborate by using a mobile solution, in a whole new way. using real-time photo sharing abilities, they can create and maintain high standards, from kitchen to table. this technology allows us to collaborate with our drivers

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oh, yes, it's time. >> i want more. can i have more, please? >> there's always more. >> it's never enough. >> we talked about it at the top. we didn't really show it. >> get the water hose out. >> there's a line. there's a line. >> you crossed it. >> i did? >> yes. as we mentioned at the top of the show, "snl" said good-bye on saturday to kristen wiig after she heads off after seven seasons to go be a movie star. just about everybody knew she was leaving but it became official at the end of saturday night's show. here it is. >> you've meant quite a lot to us over this past seven years. she got held back. so our music department got together and prepared a song to say good-bye. this one's for you.

♪ ♪ she's colors all around ♪ like a sunset going down ♪ have you seen a lady fairer ♪ she comes in colors everywhere ♪ ♪ she combs her hair ♪ she's like a rainbow ♪ she's like a rainbow ♪ combing colors in the air everywhere ♪ ♪ good-bye ruby tuesday ♪ who could hang a name on you

♪ good-bye ruby tuesday ♪ who could hang a name on you ♪ when you change with every new day ♪ >> everybody is so happy on that stage, willie. mick jagger. you've got jagger. wait, who's not happy? jon hamm's there. come on, look at this, foo fighters, look at that. >> arcade fire, tambourine. >> steve martin, this is huge. >> who do you want to serenade you when you go to hollywood? >> oh, i could never even imagine. >> oh, have we spot shadowed sudeikis? wow, we really went deep on this. this is an investigation. "morning joe" on your side. >> he's sad. come on, now. >> sudeikis was emotional. >> maybe he was emotional. >> i would have liked a clap.

he'll come back. he's mitt romney. >> he's the best joe biden in the business. >> he's great. >> what's next? david ignatius is next. also, harold ford jr. keep it on "morning joe." people with a machine.

what ? customers didn't like it. so why do banks do it ? hello ? hello ?! if your bank doesn't let you talk to a real person 24/7, you need an ally. hello ? ally bank. no nonsense. just people sense.

♪ jive talkin' ♪ jive talkin' i can say from a very personal level, i'm not about to sit here and indict private equity. to me we're getting to a ridiculous point in america. especially when i live in a state where pension funds, unions and companies are investing in bain capital. if you look at their record, they've done a lot to support

businesses to grow businesses. this kind of stuff is nauseating to me on both sides. it's nauseating to the american public. enough is enough. stop attacking private equity. stop attacking jeremiah wright. this stuff has got to stop because what it does is it undermines to me what this country should be focused on. it's a distraction from the real issues. it's either going to be a small campaign about this crap, or it's going to be a big campaign, in my opinion, about the issues that the american public cares about. let me be clear. mitt romney has made his business record a centerpiece of his campaign. he's talked about himself as a job creator. and therefore, it is reasonable and, in fact, i encourage it for the obama campaign to examine that record and to discuss it. i have no problem with that. >> okay. top of the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." richard haass and john harwood still with us. joining the set, msnbc political analyst and visiting professor at nyu, former democratic

congressman harold ford jr. >> good morning. >> good morning. and in washington, columnist for "the washington post," david ignatius. >> we were talking about that being a hostage video. richard, it had all the makings of one, didn't it? >> how many hours passed between the first and the second? but it's too bad because the substantive points the first time around were actually good. and it's too bad he thought he had to walk it back. >> it was a 12-hour lapse. he was on "meet the press" at 9:00 in the morning and that came out last night. he continued to defend his comments throughout the day p, t obviously, john harwood, if you have somebody connected to the campaign like cory booker is coming out saying it's ridiculous, which a lot of obama's biggest contributors agree with, you just can't have your guy out there saying that your main campaign strategy is terrible. >> no. and they obviously came down quite hard for that to happen. >> yeah.

are you surprised, harold, that cory spoke the truth? >> i think you can -- >> on national tv? >> i think you can reconcile a little what he said. >> no, you can't. no, harold, don't even go there. i am not giving you time to try to round off those rough edges. >> joe, i would not have backed off the comments if i were mayor booker. i understand him wanting to make the point that legitimate questions can be raised about whether or not at bain they made bad decisions. overall, i agree. the substance of his comments on "meet the press," i agree with the core of it. i would have not have backed them out. having said that, i understand as a surrogate for the campaign, you have to have one of your key and most eloquent and most effective surrogates at least clarify or at least bring context to his statements. but i agree with him, private equity's not a bad thing. as a matter of fact, private equity is a good thing in many, many instances. i think he defended it pretty aggressively on "meet the press."

>> david ignatius, i believe it was the classic example of what a gaffe is in washington, d.c. what's the old saying when somebody accidentally tells s truth? >> when he accidentally tells the truth, booker's comments on private equity do knock the pegs out of one of the strongest themes that obama's got. so just in terms of practical politics, let's face it. they're going to walk it back. but yeah, i'd call it a gaffe. >> that's an understatement. you know, leaders from the world's richest nations met this weekend, mika. big news. >> yes. camp david is where they met for the g-8 summit where president obama pressed europe to shift away from austerity measures by offering more solutions aimed at growth and creating jobs. that strategy would be in contrast to the views of german chan chancellor angela merkel who has been an advocate for european austerity.

in day two of talks in chicago as nato works out the timetable for ending the afghanistan war that has lasted more than a decade. members of the 28-nation alliance are expected to endorse a plan to hand over control of combat operations to afghan forces by the middle of next year. the majority of foreign troops will leave the country by the end of 2014. >> you know, richard haass, the big news out of the summit wasn't afghanistan. it was a shift to pro-growth policies from austerity. obviously great britain under cameron's austerity plans actually have a negative growth rate over the past couple of years. france in a lot of trouble. the dutch, as we were saying a few weeks back, rebelling against austerity measures. that's really the headline out of this conference. >> it's the headline and the good news, we're finally beginning to broaden the debate. the problem with what happened, though, at camp david with the g-8 is they talked growth, but they didn't actually walk growth. >> i was going to ask you, was this really more basically more posing for the cameras and the

voters back home than actually putting out policies that would cause britain, france, the united states to pursue pro-growth policies? >> well, yes, and there was a specific line in the communique, each country's going to choose what's right for it. so there was no consensus. and they talked about trade, a pro-growth policy, but there were zero steps in the direction of revivaling world trade talks. so it was nice to see the rhetoric, more stimulus versus austerity which is a sterile debate, but unfortunately they didn't move. more interesting at the g-8 is what they said about iran, that they actually announced that they would take steps to increase oil availability, to start drawing down from the various stockpiles, in order to basically send yet another message to iran. this is just three days before talks resume. >> keep squeezing iran. >> exactly. and it might have been more the significant thing. >> and david ignatius, iran is feeling the squeeze for the first time in a long time, aren't they? >> without question.

their financial markets show it. everything i hear from oil analysts and traders is that there's real uncertainty in the market about iran's ability to deliver oil, especially after a new round of sanctions takes place june 28 and july 1. and one thing that the summiteers at camp david were stressing was that they did not intend to remove those sanctions. so you know, it's a classic moment on the way to a negotiation where you can read the same thing in the iranian press, by the way, each side is trying to sound tough. and we're not prepared to lift this. and we're still going to do that. but that's what you get in the days before negotiation. >> john harwood, would you agree with richard's assessment that we had more style than substance coming out of the g-8 because the reality is, voters in britain, voters in france and more dramatically in spain and greece are saying enough with austerity. we need some pro-growth policies.

and we need you guys to start standing up to angela merkel. >> well, just look at our own country. i don't think john boehner and paul ryan and mitch mcconnell are going to read the g-8 communique and say oh, wait a minute. we'd better pass the president's jobs agenda, right? so the big differences is -- i mean, if you get the debate flowing in your direction, that is a good thing in and of itself. if you're barack obama or if you're francois hollande, but it doesn't result in anything. >> and yet harold, you have i think american voters for the most part and also german voters, neither seem to have much of an appetite for continued massive government spending. i think -- i think at least fiscally, both of the two nations that are really leading the west right now economically are in no mood for new programs. >> there are differences. john touched on it. your point about the germans should be understood in a context of america, we have a tax code here that many people

believe is unfair, tilted towards the wealthiest. whether that's true or not, i happen to think it's more true than not. that needs to be addressed. and we have an entitlement program. entitlement programs that are spending way above what we're taking in. you look at some states balancing their budgets including new york and others. and people have belief and hope that the federal government can do the same. so i think there's some differences in the political tone, in the political tenor between now and november, and the u.s. will be different than what we've seen. >> can i ask harold a personal question? i'm wondering, that jacket, it looks really good, is that lined with facebook stock certificates? >> i wish it was. >> being a morgan stanley guy? you guys had to rush in at the last second, didn't you? >> the long term, this is a good play. >> you think it is? >> i agree with my friend jim cramer who was on "meet the press," along with cory making the point you should sell. i disagree. >> 28 in a month. >> a month, maybe a week. >> i'm willing to take the bet if that's what he wants.

>> you guys are going to have to buy a lot more facebook stock. >> here we are, may 21st, 2012. i'll be back on hopefully if you guys have me on june 21st. we'll see where we are. >> okay. all right. we're going to move on to two stories related to china. and then we need to touch on the egyptian elections with richard. but today chinese activist chen gau left saturday morning capping a tense diplomatic standoff between the united states and china. chen escaped house arrest in china last month and fled to the u.s. embassy in beijing. the 40-year-old had been detained in his home for months after speaking out against forced abortions and the sterilization of women. chen told reporters he's grateful to be safe in the u.s. but he still worries about relatives back in china. he and his family are staying at an nyu apartment where he will

be a fellow at the law school. and david ignatius, you actually have a piece in "the washington post" about china. china's wobbly transition is what you entitle it. i'll read a portion. "for 40 years, the united states has seen a rising and stable china as being in its interest, and this core interest hasn't changed. but if the chinese leadership can't contain the current turmoil, new political forces may emerge calling for a more open and a democratic china. americans are bound to sympathetic, as they were to the tee annanmen protesters. but the process of change could be wildly unstable. an evolving china is better for everybody than an exploding one. and i guess the question, david, is how close are we potentially to the bubble bursting on a number of levels in china? >> as with so many things about china, the honest answer is that we don't know. i'd be surprised if you had an explosive political situation right away. what we're seeing now is that

the ability of the chinese party elite to contain politics within this tight sphere in which they make decisions and the country goes along with them is being challenged. that surfaced in the ouster of a very ambitious party leader who made many enemies at the center. china analyst said to me that he was the chinese version of newt gingrich, apologies, newt, in that everybody in the elite was wanting him out. and that surfaced a whole set of issues, of corruption, of how the country's going to be managed. we've gotten used to think of china as the world's great success story. the last few months have reminded me that china, both politically and economically, has a long way to go before it's really the sort of global dynamo that it sometimes likes to pretend that it is. >> richard, we've got the slowing of economic growth in

china, which we've been talking about. we've been talking for a year now about the china bubble. you've got the slowing of economic growth. you obviously have an increase in dissent. you've got political unrest, corruption. and you look at the amount of money the chinese have to spend on security, keeping their people from rising up and another tiananmen square. this doesn't look, as david said, like that vibrant success story that the united states has to be fearing it's going to overtake us in five years. >> it isn't. the entire chinese economic model has been based upon export-led growth. those days are over. europe can't absorb it, we can't absorb it. they're going to have to move to domestic demand. they're not there. you've got this enormous economic transition. you've got more than 500 million chinese on the internet. so you actually have two economic systems in china. you've got this top-down party-led system, this bottom-up internet system. the two are coming into conflict. >> you also have, god, what,

500, 600, 700 million people who make maybe $500 a year? extraordinarily poor, an extraordinarily poor country still. >> and they don't trust their government to provide for their retirement, so they're not going to start spending or consuming. china has all of this going on. and the party has to basically ask itself, what is the source of our legitimacy? for three decades now, it depended on raising the standards of living. they can't guarantee that much anymore. so are they going to open up politically? or more likely, i think, are they going to crack down politically or maybe become more nationalist? we are at potentially a turning point. >> china's obviously going to rise throughout the century. they are an extraordinary power, there's no doubt about it. but we americans, we really do, always have to have -- have to pick a new country to be fearful of. we went from the soviet union. they collapsed. and then immediately it was japan that was going to overtake us. japan collapsed economically. now it's china that's going to overtake us. we just -- we just pick rivals.

it seems year in, year in and out. >> it's part and parcel of american exceptionalism. we have to be neurotic. >> that's word. and so politically, how big of a deal is china on the campaign trail for the president? how much are they focused on china? >> well, it's pretty big. mitt romney has made a point about being tougher on china than barack obama. >> around currency issues. >> yes. he's made the argument that bill clinton, george w. bush, barack obama have all been played for chumps by the chinese. in practice, i suspect his policies aren't going to be all that different from barack obama. but we've seen in campaigns for the last several years that that neurosis bubbles up. i wouldn't expect it to be a huge issue in the presidential between obama and romney. but we've seen it pop up in congressional races as something significant. the more people feel insecure about their own economic futures, the more they look for

somebody to blame. >> so david ignatius, do the chinese face unrest, the government, if they don't continue six, seven, eight percent gret over the neowth ovw years? >> again, it's very hard to predict. the chinese are awfully good at suppressing dissent. that's one of their skills as an authoritarian regime. but yes, one thing we haven't mentioned, there are estimated to be about 300 million undocumented chinese workers who have migrated from poor provinces in the west to the east to the rich coastal cities who hang around those coastal cities in a way that's, i think, intimidating to the chinese elite. so china's one thing that we shouldn't just see through a u.s. prism in terms of our issues. china, its growth, its ability to find a stable political system that will draw in all the parts of its population, that's a great story on its own.

we have very little ability to affect it. and yet, it will be a crucial determinant for our economic growth over time. i just have found myself watching this story the last six months with fascination because it's a big one, and we're used to just thinking of china going up, up, up. >> all right. and before we go to break, let's get to the egyptian elections. how would you characterize it to take david's title, wobbly transition close? close enough? >> two big things. one, you have five candidates. and two of them are going to go into the final round. none of us knows who the two are. more interesting, we don't yet have the constitution that whoever wins the election is going to govern with. so in a sense, what egypt has done is put elections before democracy and before the infrastructure. and it's one of the many reasons why things are so uneasy there. >> and why were all the candidates disqualified? did we ever get a straight answer on why they disqualified the top candidates a few weeks back?

>> the short answer is no. there's lots of egyptian blogs and questioning about it. they were quite smart disqualifying this person associated with the muslim brotherhood. that said, you now have five candidates who represent the political spectrum. >> well we have a lot of americans going over there and observing? i know ray lahood's son got detained. a lot of other pro-democracy activists got detained. i know jimmy carter is going over there. are we going to have some observers? >> you're going to have some observers. and things have been pretty open. for example, you just had the first-ever debate on egyptian television which was quite interesting. i don't know who's going to come out in the top two slots on the mere fact you have that uncertainty. this is just a small step on the much larger path of the democratization of egypt. and i think the tough step is whoever wins the election. >> thanks. always great to see you.

thank you so much, richard. your contributions to the bee gees. >> put richard in, the bee gees, right? >> it has changed the way i look not only at the bee gees music but popular culture. stay with us if you could. up next, afghan president hamid karzai offers a special thank you to american taxpayers for footing a decade-long war bill. chuck todd joins us live from the nato summit in chicago. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. [ male announcer ] if you have yet to master the quiet sneeze... [ sneezes ] [ male announcer ] you may be an allergy muddler. try zyrtec® for powerful allergy relief. and zyrtec® is different than claritin® because it starts working faster on the first day you take it. zyrtec®. love the air. [ sneezes ]

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♪ waiting for the break of day we are in the process of gradually handing over lead responsibility to the afghans. and as we do that, the role of our troops can gradually change from combat to support, and the

number of our troops can also gradually be reduced. >> afghanistan is fully aware of the task ahead and of what afghanistan needs to do to reach the objectives that we all have of a stable, peaceful and self-reliant afghanistan. >> i tell you what, ben was great. he was great in "gandhi." >> he has a certain je ne sais quoi. >> "jeopardy!" champ! "jeopardy!" champ! >> and host of "the daily rundown." >> reporter: joe? i love that you brought up ben kingsley. we almost have to make a movie about karzai simply to make sure we cast ben kingsley. i do the same thing every time i stare at him. maybe they're one and the same. >> mika brought it up.

it's the role of a lifetime, right? >> reporter: the role of a lifetime. >> ask chuck an afghan-related "jeopardy!" question. >> i was going to ask the nato secretary-general, what else does the do other than running nato? the answer is, what is a pastry chef. alex? >> reporter: wow! >> yeah. exactly. so what's going on with you, chuck? what's happening in chicago? any news? >> reporter: well, i'd say most of the news is taking -- took place here three months ago. if you recall, the original plan was the entire announcement about speeding up the transition. >> three months ago. so you're saying you've got no news this morning. >> you're there now? >> reporter: i'm saying this is a nato summit where they're formalizing the news, if you will. all of the -- now we have unintended news, right? you've got sort of the protests which, for the most part, as bad as it looks, imagine if the g-8 had actually been here. i mean, one of the smarter

things they did was move the g-8 to camp david. and frankly, while they never admitted it publicly, one of the unstated reasons was, the last thing they wanted, nato, you get your share of anti-war protesters. the g-8 would have brought the antiglobalization folks, occupiers in a way that you wouldn't have seen. it would have been probably two or three times worse. >> yeah. i guess we read "the new york times" yesterday, they had three anarchists that were arrested that were plotting terror acts this chicago. >> reporter: and they were all, you know, sort of connected to the occupy movement, and they had gotten here. although that was an interesting little episode. somehow the federal authorities weren't at all involved in those arrests. it felt like one of those, look at us in the city. we're cracking down. it was one of those, you weren't sure how serious was it versus how much did they want to have a public display of trying to send a message to the protesters. >> meacham?

>> chuck, is there any sense of how nato -- the other countries in nato are feeling about the obama anti-terror policy which, as we've all talked about, isn't much different than what it was 3 1/2 years ago? >> reporter: not only that, how about the fact that nato today, one of the announcements is nato is going to do its own drone strikes. so, you know, does that mean it simply is u.s. drones with a nato sticker on it? think about that simply just even rhetorical shift there and acceptance. i mean, in many ways, now we may know among the reasons why the obama administration went more public with exactly what the drone program is, what goes into it because now nato is going to be operating this in many ways. but you go to that, you know, the other thing that struck me here about nato is the lack, for instance, of conversation about syria. now, granted, this was all designed about afghanistan, but between -- there's been all of

this -- there's a lot of sideline conversations going on about syria. but nato -- there seems to be hesitance about taking on the same role, frankly, that they took on with libya to do that with nato. there is no appetite for that, and that's something that you do seem to see. >> chuck, there's tension overall with afghanistan, but there's a specific issue pertaining to a supply route that caused the president to, i guess, refuse to sit down with his pakistani counterpart. can you tell us about that? >> reporter: there's been some confusion. nato gave -- and frankly, encouraged by u.s. -- the u.s. government to president zardari, unconditional, come to chicago, come out here, we want to see you here. the assumption, zardari thought that meant, oh, he would get to sit down with president obama, and they could start hashing this out. i think the obama administration thought, well, if he came over here, he'd finally agree to a deal on the sidelines, and then

at that point, they'd sit down. that didn't happen. to ease tension a little bit, secretary clinton did meet with zardari, but basically, this is where all politics is local. you know, zardari is trying to show that he's standing up to the americans, and he's going to extract a higher price from nato and the u.s. government. that's what he wants to show folks back home before he opens up those supply routes. this all goes back to those pakistani troops that were killed by u.s. air strikes there on the border. pakistan wanted an apology, and the u.s. said no. >> and david ignatius, this pakistani relationship remains obviously one of the most complex for u.s. policymakers and also one of the most important. >> complex, deteriorating. there's just no way around it. if you talk to people in the white house, they'll say that this is worse than it was. that a policy that tried to put

pakistan and pakistan's stability in the forefront, that was the whole idea of the president's review in 2009. let's focus on really the pakistan part of that. that just hasn't gone well. and this latest dickering over exactly what the payment per truck that's crossing the khyber pass into afghanistan will be. that's what they're negotiating, is sort of a sorry tale of this. at the time the invitation to karzai was made, the u.s. believed that this was done, that they had a deal. so i'm sure there's some feelings in the white house, hey, what happened to the deal? that's why you see karzai being held at arm's length. on chuck's broader point about what they're going to do at the summit, he's right. the basic news was made three months ago. i happened to be on the plane with leon panetta, the secretary of defense. when he made that news he rolled out prematurely, a lot of people thought the fact that the u.s. combat troops will end their

main combat role in the middle of next year, in the summer of 2013, and then they'll move into a sort of support role, training and partnering with the afghan troops. the idea is to test the basic core idea of this policy, which is that you can transition at the afghan leadership and then u.s. troops will leave in 2014. they did roll that out. and they're going to roll it out again in chicago. but that's the basic policy. >> the harsh rhetoric -- gaifd, good morning, harold ford -- the harsh posture of president karzai the last six months over the accidental mistaken killing of afghan citizens which president obama apologized for, there was grave concern that maybe karzai overreacted to that. in some ways, has the president and the white house called the bluff of president karzai who's asked us to accelerate this exit, and what impact does this have on his government and his ability to him being karzai, him being able to stabilize the country in the intermediate and

long term in your estimation? >> harold, as you know, karzai is such a volatile person. and sometimes you go day to day and week to week without being certain just where he is on the map. i think president obama finally just got sick of this kind of being bounced around by a ping-pong ball. he decided i'm president of the united states. we have to look at what our interests are. he decided that the large footprint, the counterinsurgency mission that had been started, that he had started himself with his initial surge of 30,000 troops just wasn't working fast enough. and so he is trying to structure u.s. policy in a sense independent of what karzai says today or tomorrow and focus on u.s. interests. a key part of that policy is that even though we're pulling out the main combat troops, we hope for ten more years after 2014 to keep, let's say, 20,000 troops there in a counterterrorism mission so that we'll be able to protect against al qaeda, maybe steady the government a little bit. so on the one side pulling out

and also saying we're going to stay for a longer term. >> david, thank you. >> chuck todd, what do you have on "the daily rundown" today? >> reporter: well, i'm going to get in a little more pakistan and afghanistan, but how do you not get into a little on cory booker? i've also got jesse jackson. by the way, joe, did you read mitt romney's op-ed yesterday placed in "the chb tribuicago t? he talked about it once, never talked about the word strategy. there is muted republican criticism on this. i think secretly republicans are glad that this thing is sort of getting pushed, that the president's doing what he's doing and moving it off the agenda. >> not their problem, hopefully. >> in a big part, jon meacham, they're big ben kingsley fans. >> well, there is that. >> look at the split screen. >> one and the same. >> we've got another academy award. >> they saw "the dictator" this weekend. they were among the six people who did. >> let's pitch it to hbo,

hameed. >> thank you so much. appreciate it. >> coming up -- the editor of "forbes" breaks down this year's list of the 100 most powerful celebrities. keep it right here on "morning joe."

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♪ 38 past the hour. up next, what can today's business leaders learn from the greatest generation? best-selling author arthur herman on how american industry helped win the second world war. >> meacham says he was his professor. >> "morning joe" back in a moment. ♪ surf's up everybody get your boards and your wetsuits ♪ free-credit-score-dot-com's gonna direct you ♪

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hey, it's sandra -- from accounting. peter. i can see that you're busy... but you were gonna help us crunch the numbers for accounts receivable today. i mean i know that this is important. well, both are important. let's be clear. they are but this is important too. [ man ] the receivables. [ male announcer ] michelin knows it's better for xerox to help manage their finance processing. so they can focus on keeping the world moving. with xerox, you're ready for real business. ♪ at 41 past the hour, it's a little gloomy. >> that's ugly but this is exciting. it's warm inside, though, mika because we've got jon meacham's former professor. >> yes. what was his grade? >> well, now, that i can't disclose. there's all kinds of legal things. >> really? >> as i say, he was a disciplined problem. always. >> was he a difficult student?

>> difficult, no. he was very -- he was very -- >> precocious. >> he knew how to, you know, present himself in the best possible light in every class that he was in. as i said, i do remember the paper he wrote for me in my class. >> yes? >> on aesthetics, and it was really good. >> what did he get on that paper? >> he can't tell you. >> i can't tell you. >> i think there are protections about that. >> did he get out socially much? because he seems like the guy who didn't have -- >> let's put it this way. when you're in the south, you never have any trouble getting out socially. >> really? >> even the nerds had their own fraternity. >> was he sober in class? >> oh, yeah. everybody was. it's a lovely school, a wonderful school. >> it is. >> so you're the author of the new book "freedom's forge." i really do find this is one of the more underreported parts -- >> stories. >> -- of the great american war. >> and the greatest generation.

>> and the greatest generation in that our industry turned on a dime on december 7th, 1941, and started producing steel and started producing planes and started producing tanks almost overnight. >> well, see, that's what's so interesting is that's the way it's usually presented. and when we went to school -- >> you're going to tell me i'm wrong, aren't you? >> it's always the bombs drop on pearl harbor and washington wakes up and says oh, my god, we've got to start producing planes and tanks and machine guns and starts issuing orders. what i show in this book, you had to stand that story on its head because the real preparation for war comes not on december 8th, 1941, but in may 1940. and when roosevelt realizes this country is probably going to be at war in two years, he's going to have to mobilize this country for war. there's no defense industry. the war department and the navy

department are clueless on how they're going to fight a kind of mass mechanized war. it's a whole new kind of war being fought in europe in may of 1940. >> right. >> we have to prepare for it. we've got the 18th largest army in the world. holland almost has a bigger army than we do. and he's got to gear up for that. >> he starts in 1940? >> in may of 1940. >> he's a year before that. he realizes, i've got to do something. my people in washington have run out of ideas on how we not only mobilize for war but how to get this economy going again after a decade. and he calls the man who is really the key figure in this book, the president of general motor who was a danish immigrant, he had worked his way up from the shop floor at ford and then chevrolet and gm. and what he does is he tells the president, look, you've tried the top-down model for trying to get this done.

let's do a bottoms up. turned to us, turned to business. let me figure out a way in which we can coordinate all of the different industries, the most innovative, the most productive industries, and we will be able to -- if you give us 18 months -- we will give you more war materiel than you can even imagine. >> jon meacham. >> how bipartisan was this? >> well, this is what's so interesting. as knudsen was republican. most of the ceos were republicans. roosevelt had spent the last two terms beating up on business, blaming them for the depression, blaming them for the failure to get out of the depression. he couldn't stand business. but he had no choice. his back's to the wall here. and i think it says a lot about the character of business in those days that these guys who were republicans who have been attacked, in many cases personally attacked by roosevelt, say, the president's called. we're going to face a crisis in a minute. let's go to work. and they do. and as i show in the book, the

numbers -- what they produce, the people who were employed as a result of it is just staggering. >> it's extraordinary. >> you began to answer my question, but how much of this is pure patriotism? was there any commercial interest involved? >> sure, absolutely. >> how did that play out? >> absolutely. they call it patriotism plus 8%. although it was actually closer to about 2%. when you got down to it. look, that was knudsen's whole point. he said, you can try the top-down model, you're going to build tanks, machine guns, steel helmets. the best way to do this is to use the incentive of profit. in other words, make it voluntary. say, this is what we're looking for. who do you think can make machine guns? we've never made machine guns before, but here's the basic designs. here's the blueprint. what can you do? it will have the same effect in any free market. that those who feel they can do the best will make those kinds of things. and the productivity will respond. >> in closing, what did we learn

today? as we debate cutting the defense budget, pentagon spending -- >> exactly. i think this is the perfect model for how you can learn some basic lessons about not just fixing the defense budget but how you get a sluggish economy going. i wrote this book for two reasons. one was, i wanted that other half of the greatest generation, the people who worked in the factories and in the shipyards and the plants and the people who ran those shipyards and plants to get their fair share of the credit of important work that they did. and sometimes at great sacrifice that they undertook. but i also said, as i wrote this book, i suddenly realize, there's a powerful lesson here about how free markets respond. and they respond not to command from the top down, not to orders from washington. all the way through this book, washington, insofar as they can figure out what's happening, vast sums of material are being produced, they fought it all the way along. they had no idea what was going

on. >> and fdr, also credit fdr for going after his enemy. businesses hated fdr as much as fdr hated business. and he knew when to let the market take control. and look at this, 286,000 warplanes created during the war. 86,000 tanks. 8,800 naval vessels. 2.6 million machine guns and 41 billion rounds of ammunition. and it led to the defeat of hitler. >> we were building eight aircraft carriers a month. imagine if the pentagon can do that. >> the book is "freedom's forge." arthur herman, thank you very much, professor. >> thank you so much for coming. >> entirely my pleasure. >> we're very sorry about meacham. >> we apologize. up next, a dramatic end in the champions league final. we'll relive the magic with roger bennett and lifelong chelsea fan martin bashir next on "morning joe." [ female announcer ] the next generation of investing technology

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with us now, we've got espn soccer analyst and sirius radio, smart and lifelong chelsea fan

roger, i've got to say. >> are you okay there? >> i just started picking this game up. obviously, seven, eight years ago. i've got to say, the last seven day, though, from man city's extraordinary comeback to what happened in munich. >> seven extraordinary days of football. >> indeed, football has been terrible but like a good soap opera, all you sneneed is a cat fight and a good cliffhanger. >> this paid off after a lot of 0-0 ties. >> this game in munich against chelsea, no one expected it. like a broadway show, having two understudies in the lead role. munich battling chelsea. >> final minutes -- explain this. 83 minutes in, and it looked like it was over. these things go 90 minutes plus extra time, but what happened -- yes! get in there. >> martin bashir, what -- get in

there! >> watch this. okay. ooh. >> guys, you're going to have to slow down. stop, stop. come off the tape for a second. okay? just stop. god. all right, so martin bashir, you doing okay? >> i am -- >> i need to get him oxygen. >> i am telling you, my house with joey scarborough and chelsea friends when he put that in the upper right-hand corner, i wish we had a shoulow mo, one minute until mid night. your glasses are steaming up. >> i've been up 48 hours and probably still above the legal limit for driving. this game was weighted in so um ways. 19-19, england versus germany. losing. 1996, england versus germany,

england beaten by germany, out. this game was weighted against chelsea. >> and in munich. >> they're playing in munich. >> here's this team that comes with this extraordinary determination, which has been evidenced right the way through the competition, and they ex-dutex-dut -- executed it -- >> watch this, slow motion. >> ooh, look at that. take that! >> now, i've got to say -- this is -- this is -- and by the way -- i am glad i was not on the west side of -- look at this. >> here's martin. >> oh! >> so -- so roger, there's a victor whip the mith the man of match. >> the longest segment. >> you talk about cinderella stories. down 3-1. they lose 3-1. go napoli, win 4-1. then messy missing penalty kick. you have --

>> played watching defend on victory. lard to look at but tenacious, endeserve herb, belief. chelsea more like religion we were talking ak than a football team. never give up. >> big banners. chelsea is my religion. big ben, playing highlights in a second. these penalty kicks. >> yeah. >> which the greatest players in the world always make. a miss, and robin missed this past week. a terrible penalty kick. >> that was a mistake to get robin to take the penalty because robin used to play for chelsea. >> so -- >> there you go. >> it's a psychological. >> hey, look at that. >> we then go penalty kicks, and chelsea -- >> this is something you don't see often. the germans missing a penalty. you see it as often as you see -- >> in english -- oh, look a the that. >> that's how you solve the problem of taking penalties.

>> somebody from the -- >> can i just mention some politics? very, very quickly. >> not much. >> in 1990, david was the chief secretary to the treasury in john majors government. margaret thatcher just resigned. john major wins the election. >> you're going quick -- >> launches a policy called back to basics. all of his cabinet, moral and upright. and david miami sller is caught cheating. the girlfriend sells to the papers, made love to her in a chelsea shirt. and so for this reason, i managed to get a pair of chelsea nightwear for willie o. chelsea shorts so when he puts these on. >> mrs. geist. >> it is time -- >> willie, victoria's secret for you. >> these are sharp, too. going to love them.

they're actually small. going to appreciate it. >> this was a big win for so many people. chelsea fans, this is the super bowl plus-plus for so many football fans in europe. but abromovich. >> looked like he was going to tell them and buy the united emirates instead. football is over now until june 8th. 15 of the world greatest teams and england. poland and the ukraine. >> mika, we can't wait. you wanted to finish the sentence. >> i wanted to participate. tim carter points out that when we did predictions he has the results of our -- >> let's see this. >> tim? >> just wanted to point out, mika was the only one to tick tottenham to finish in the final four. >> yeah. >> she didn't have man city in

the top four. i was even worse. i had man u, chelsea, liverpool, man chechtor city and arsenal. >> look at this. manny won. first three, roger, pretty darn good. >> roger bennett. >> meek kavrnlgts thank you. >> i don't know what to say to martin. >> you can see martin screaming and goal in for lawrence on "the last word." coming up, the music legend that passed away this weekend. with the spark miles card from capital one, sven's home security gets the most rewards of any small business credit card! how does this thing work? oh, i like it! [ garth ] sven's small business earns double miles on every purchase, every day! woo-hoo!!! so that's ten security gators, right? put them on my spark card! why settle for less?

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good morning. it's 8:00 on the east coast and 5:00 on the west coast. welcome back to "morning joe." as you take a live look at new york city. back with us on set we have jon meacham, and richard haass. >> the bee gees were actually an extraordinarily successful group that -- that grew phenomenal ballads, like this one, throughout the late '60s and early '70s before they really created a sound that defined an era in the 1970s. >> absolutely. all right, the world is mourning the death, joe mentioned, the robin gibb. one of the members of the legendary group the bee gees. they charted six consecutive

number one songs starting with "how deep is your love" which went to number one on christmas eve of 1977. it was the most successful run of any act in american since the beatles in 1964. their songs propelled the "saturday night fever" sound track to number one for 24 straight weeks on the strength of songs like "stayin' alive" and "night fever," the best selling sound track of all-time until dethroned by at the body guard" 15 jeer years later. the brothers relationship was troubled at times, and robin gibb died sunday at the age of 62. >> joe, help us out. >> yeah. >> they sold something like 200 million albums. >> right. >> to a certain generation, they're almost a cartoon version of the 1970s in their jimmy

fallon doing the gibb brothers. put them in perspective as a guy that understands rock 'n' roll. >> the thing is, disco was -- right. richard will remember this back in the 1970s. the chicago white sox actually had -- came out and did a demolition night. >> burned disco records, and -- and so the bee gees were lumped in with genuinely horrific acts, but they were extraordinary songwriters and at the time it wasn't my type of music, but it's a i got older and stopped being a snob about music i realized, just like richard carpenter, you know. when the carpenters were selling so much in the early '70s. you go back and look at the songs written, extraordinary. the most extraordinary thing, though, willie, you can only say this probably about maybe four, five music acts since rock 'n' roll in '55. they defined and era. >> best way to put it.

>> start with think song that went number one. "how deep is your love." at one point three songs in the top five. three souths in the top five. no band has done that since the beatles, and they completely, you know -- you hear, you know, slim whitman gave us the sound track of our life. no. these guys gave people that were coming of age in the late '70s the sound track of their life. they were everywhere musically. >> and i think richard haass, showing the other side of it, they also -- >> show your range here. >> they also enabled a lot of horrific fashions on people like donny deutsch. we wish donny were here. but, you know, new york city, 1977, 1978, studio 54. it was -- it was -- spun out of these guys. >> picturing richard haass in studio 54. >> i couldn't get in. >> they wouldn't let him in.

>> talking to liza and mick jagger about nato expansion. >> yeah. anything to say about this? because haass -- >> i saw him in the helsinki awards. >> speaking of mick and studio 54, say it off the top. mick jagger, always known this about him, he's a hell of an actor. i actually -- i laughed out loud more at mick jagger's performances, probably than the other characters all year other than kristen wiig who left. jagger was funny. >> on the game show. >> the game show. >> his best character. >> oh, my god. i knew a guy like that. >> he's performed on the show many times and lorne michaels, trying what, 35, 37 years to get him to host the show. final lip got him to do it for the finale and i think he delivered. sang three songs.

jeff beck, did a bunch of songs. fu fighters. >> he's in incredible shape. he still sings very well. the karaoke scene. >> great. >> i mean, if you haven't seen "saturday night live" from this past week, you need to go watch it. >> go to hulu and watch it. >> i wouldn't -- watch it on hulu, on apple tv. this is an insurance convention and they're all sitting there doing karaoke and mick jagger is an insurance adjuster, too embarrassed. i couldn't possibly get up there and do that. >> i'm not mick jagger. >> all talking about -- >> you know, he's a good actor and got good comic timing. he was very funny. >> he was very good. >> notice, we just got to say it, at the end of the show, they're having the finale. everyone's happy.

is jason sudeikis is not smiles. he was angry. i don't think lorne michaels was going to let him say good-bye. did you see the steam coming off his head? by the way, he didn't have a skit all night. >> no. >> that was bizarre. >> it was bizarre. i thought the tribute was great. >> no way they were going to show that late on the show, but, yeah. sudeikis came out and at first i thought emotional. you saw him in the background. and then he just -- >> then he wouldn't clap or sing. they kind of left it there. >> no. he was angry. >> they can't lose him. he's mitt romney and joe biden. >> come on. by the way, it's good for him to stick around for the presidential -- having the primetime specials. >> ask tina fey how that won. i mean, for business. >> really good for business, and don't worry, you can have your movie, you know. you can have yourcgroober" a

little later. >> i don't know. i hope we have stuff left for this you can't use. okay. >> we just flushed it down the toilet. >> let's try to get to more news. "snl" i want to have more later. >> in the '70s, disco in the '80s with michael jackson's moon walk, where they go backwards. >> did you ever learn how to do the moon walk? >> no. >> you ought to try it now. backwards out of the room. new york mayor book er is speaking out on his own party. criticized the president's re-election campaign for going after his record in bain capital in recent campaign ads. take a listen. >> from a personal level, i'm

not about to sit here and indict private equity. to me, getting into a ridiculous point in america. especially i live in a state, investing in bain capital. look at their record, they've done a lot to support businesses that grow businesses. this kind of stuff is nauseating to me on both sides. it's nauseating to the american public. enough is enough. stop attacking public equity and this undermines to me what this country should be focused on. it's a distraction from the real issues. either a small campaign about this crap or it's going to be a big campaign, in my opinion, about the issues that americans care about. >> you know, that was -- very courageous. you always hear, you know, politicians just meekly lining up behind their leaders t. this was a very courageous thing for cory booker to do and i applaud republicans when they're

courageous and speak out. so that's great. >> yeah. he got a lot of praise. senator john mccain who tweeted. he tweeted this. thank you, mayor cory booker for the straight talk this morning. >> that was straight talk. >> booker also took to twitter quoting i will fight hard for obama to win but just as his 2008 campaign did i believe we must elevate and not denigrate. this is the obama i know. >> that's great. >> sort of. well, there's a youtube address that was, happened later in the day. >> stuck to his guns even on youtu youtube. that takes gunch s guts. >> yeah. sought to further reaffirm his support of the president. >> let me be clear. mitt romney has made his business record a centerpiece of his campaign. he's talked about himself as a job creator and, therefore, it is reasonable and in fact i encourage it for the obama campaign to examine that record and to discuss it.

i have no problem with that. >> wow. >> no. somebody -- >> the hostage -- that is the definition of a hostage video. can we see that one more time. state troopers. >> no. the troopers were out. the guys with the swords -- >> this is homeland. >> look at that. >> seriously. because -- >> all over the newspaper today. >> if you notice, he's actually sending morse code with the blinking of his eyes. willie geist. >> wow. willie and i -- all in favor. >> oh, my gosh. >> holy cow. >> i think that -- we think the phone call came in before he left the studio. >> yeah. >> on the way to the airport. >> came while he was in the studio asking, what are you doing? >> if you read his twitter feed after, he doesn't totally pull back from it. there, obviously, he did. >> that's a hostage video. >> private equity and wall street serve an important part

of our economy, et cetera, and state-wide races. >> most agree with cory booker and not with barack obama. >> exactly. >> and not with -- >> those who will vote for barack obama are investing in the pension funds, investing in their i.r.a.s and wall street. the idea the private equity of wall street are hostile to the 99%s is absurd. their fate rises and falls with private equity in wall street. >> by the way, jon meacham, shock a lot of people, when bain capital invests wisely it helps bain capital, yes, also teachers unions. also helps fellow employee unions, firefighters. that -- bain capital makes their money by public unions investing in them. these big, whether california or new jersey. and when they invest wisely. guess what? it's public unions and private investors who profit. >> absolutely.

it's disappointing about the hostage video. by the way, does the fbi field office know that they've got those guys loose in newark? >> how is that supposed to mitigate on "meet the press"? i'm confused that is a good -- it makes it much worse and underlines the fact how bad the white house's position is on this, that they had to stick a gun -- i mean, just look at that hostage. >> claire danes i think had to do that. >> what's disappointing about that is i felt the most encouraging headline in a long time was that most of the nato leaders at camp david were talking about growth, not austerity this weekend. that was totally a move in the right direction. the president was striking a tone about, you know what? we can grow out of this. we can actually create as opposed to cut, and it made the, all the bipartisan commissions, all the tough things we have to do, it began to put it in a context of, this is about a

stronger future, not just a leaner future. >> well -- >> and then they send the guys with the guns to newark. >> yeah. >> rhetorically speaking, of course. >> of course. sorry. >> we think -- >> we think. >> and mika, while you talk, show the video. >> no. >> oh, come on. >> i just want to show it. come on. really, this is -- >> this is a classic. >> i can't look. i won't. >> what group do you think -- >> stop it. >> cory booker. >> oh, my god. >> didn't even frame him up. >> they didn't. cut him-d. head room. laptop open with the big words for axelrod. >> he got nervous when they said they were going to cut off his head, he didn't realize they were just talking about the framing. >> he ought to go to chris christie, rivals. little videos together. get advice on being a often. okay. leaders from the world's richest -- >> you know, mika -- >> do you want to ge over his

endorsement, mitt romney hostage video? >> for a g-8 summit. president obama pressed europe to shicht away from austerity measures offering more solutions aimed at growth and creating jobs. >> that strategy would be in contrast to the views of german chancellor angela merkel, an advocate for european austerity. this morning in chicago, day two of talks with dozens of foreign leaders begins as nato works out the timetable for ending the afghanistan war that has lasted more than a decade. members of the 28-nation alliance are expected to endorse a plan to hand over control of combat operations to afghan forces by the middle of next year. the majority of foreign troops will leave the country by the end of 2014. president obama met with afghan president hamid karzai to reaffirm the agreement which the the two leaders struck in kabul just a few weeks ago. >> did he have to buy opium from afghanistan, the united states, from afghanistan, richard, to

get karzai to play ball with us? >> it was less than successful. the united states is losing control over nato, we all know we're getting out. the question, how fast and all that. plus, doesn't help when the pakistanis won't agree to continued use of supply routes essentially holding nato up to ransom. it's very hard to keep control. essentially, the administration has decided this was a bad bet. they're walking back from the large buildup in afghanistan and what you hate to the see is growing disarray. people racing to the exit. this is not a successful -- >> what do you think of the story the obama administration planted in the "new york times," talking barack obama decided in 2009 this wasn't working and was -- that was the most ham-fisted planted story in the "times" i've ever seen. he screwed up in 2009 tripling the number of troops and now claiming it was part of a bigger plan. it was -- rex reid called it

laugh out loud funny. i was at my breakfast table yesterday eating cereal and started laughing at just how obviously planted that story was. >> and it didn't work. to say the least. it doesn't persuade the obama administration, you said, tripled u.s. force levels and within the first year after he came into office, now are winding it down. again, this is, you know, thousands and thousands and thousands of troops. over 100,000 troops ended up in afghanistan. we've had problems -- >> and it didn't work. >> that's the bigger question. >> by the way, we're not second guessing. we around this table said you shouldn't triple the number of troops there. unwinnable. >> got ambitious in afghanistan and now talking about afghanistan exactly the opposite of ambition but we never needed to do this. could have had a modest approach all along. the light footprint pd approach. what vice president biden was arguing turned out to be the right policy and, two, the policy the administration has gotten back to but in a round

about way after several years of surging. coming up, "forbes" magazine takes us inside the business world of a modern day celebrity, from press coverage to internet impact we'll look at who's topping this year's list -- >> bieber on the cover. >> they have bieber on the cover? not the bieb. are you serious? >> that would cause me serious -- >> replacing the bieb. my daughters are going to -- they're melting down. >> is it bad? i don't even know who they are. the 1968 republican primary reflects on george romney's failed president's bid and how that campaign not only shaped mitt romney's campaign this year, but has also shaped his life. first, a man who i think it's safe to say -- >> takes nothing. >> at the end of the day will shape nobody's life. we'll make him shape today's forecast. here's bim karins. actually, you're here every day. >> and back here, too, same way.

good morning, everyone. we are watching temperatures that are very warm in the southwest. tell you what, the worst weather right now in the entire country, new york city. we got 45 airport delays building. the reason why, radar is lighting up, heavy down pours even lightning strikes reported northern new jersey coming into lower portions of new york including staten island and brooklyn all arriving in manhattan shortly. by far the worst commute. and thunderstorms out west. i mentioned it's hot in the southwest. yesterday was 104 in phoenix. i think we're going to top that today. excessive heat warnings in effect. 108 in phoenix to yuma and tucson. vaguers very hot, too, and if you're joining us early from portland or seattle a cold front coming onshorp with windy conditions and rainy weather. your weather is not half as hard as in new york city. the view from the top of our building. can't see much. heavy rain moving through new york city. umbrellas are up.

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welcome back. 25 past the hour. joining us, editor of "forbes" magazine randall lane here with the magazine's celebrity 100 list now out on newsstands. >> not just plain cash. talk about a lot of different things. impact. >> right. >> web presence, power. >> truly an influence. >> influence. >> what makes them influential on this list? what makes your celebrities influential? >> twitter followers, ability to move. when you tweet something, it moves the needle. and in the digital age that's

power now. that's influence. >> really? >> look at the list. >> ten to one. >> number ten. >> tom cruise. >> let's talk about spielberg quickly and cruise. i guess this is mainly built on money and influence? >> yes. and these guy, you don't see a lot in terms of out there in the press, and movie stars tend to play more reserved roles but make big money and tom cruise had the new "mission: impossible" made about $90 million last year. >> katy perry, making $45 million and more importantly got a divorce from a guy she shouldn't have married. >> okay. >> it's money and it's influence and this is somebody with eight-digit twitter followers on dozens of magazine covers. somebody young people respond to and she's got incredible power and staying power. >> mika, seven and six. >> no. i'm good. seriously? kim kardashian and britney

spears? >> yes. britney spears still making $58 million. >> what's going on? >> unbelievable. >> how is she making $58 million? >> 20 years ago you would see these flash in the pans and they fade away. with twitter, 10 million, 20 million twitter followers, reality television, people don't go away. >> so let me just, because you look at earnings, press coverage, internet impact. what is the impact of kim kardashian? >> the impact of kim kardashian, you cannot turn on the television -- famous for being famous to the extent that fame is part of our chronology. >> what does she do? >> gets paid to tweet. >> has an impact on herself? >> she has an impact -- an army of followers who will actually follow what she does and do this. >> what is influence? >> what is -- >> let's move beyond. >> i'm curious. there's no -- >> britney spears. the feeling $58 million.

wouldn't have it but for the bad behavior. press on her nonstop and somehow still stays up in the list? she's not producing hits. >> the pure money, forget the influence. where's $58 million? she wasn't on tour. where does that money come from? >> she was on tour. >> she was? fine. >> and i don't know where she gets it there. >> and going to be on "x-factor" as a judge most likely. number four, lady gaga and rihanna. >> seven of the eight spaces occupied by women, pretty remarkable and a big shift from, if you look at this list ten years ago. again, i think it speaks to the idea speaking directly to your audience. >> tell me whether i've got this right or not. you've got katy perry, britney spears, lady gaga, rihanna, justin bieber, jennifer lopez.

a lot of singers. this list used to be occupied by tv moguls, oprah, movie stars like harrison ford. >> oprah is still number two. amazing about oprah, there's power, too, because oprah dropped -- she lost in terms of last year to this year, making $125 million. now less. less. because of her television show, she's still number two. that's truly influence and that she still makes $125 million -- >> what's happening in the marketplace that the singers are making so much more money? >> these people aren't singers. these women are using their singing platform to become celebrities. they are true celebrity, 24/7 celebrity, water tweeting, tele. j. lo number 50. same methodology, two words. "american idol."

shoots to number one. >> and justin bieber, the guy, what's his impact? >> bieber's made $108 million in the last two years. we put him on the cover. what's startling, for years celebrity used their fame to get money, endorsements. maybe they put their name on a restaurant and get a cut of the action. bieber's actually using his fame to buy into silicon valley start-ups. actually using his money for access, and we found about a dozen celebrity whose have taken the next step, not just shilling for product, but saying, hey, i'm famous. what i'm going to do is get in on this series a private placement investment. you know, that's kind of a watershed moment where celebrities are taking the next level where they're actually putting money into companies instead of taking money out. >> to go to mika's point, though, you're measuring u bic kuwa u-of-u bic wu bic wabic umplt b

>> 22 million twitter followers, bieber, when he tweets something it moves markets, so to speak, in this world. >> just to parse it out, you could see the influence oprah winfrey has on others. rihanna you could argue that, but, like, britney spears and kim kardashian -- >> they have influence. >> over disintegrating? >> no. they tweet something. >> bieber is something else. it's not going to be like -- >> no -- >> somebody in the northeast harbor. there are a lot of people out there that, nfl players, whatever, when she speaks, people listen. >> especially look at the team market and you look at -- if you look at the people who can, when they tweet something all of a sudden a product goes from nothing to a best-seller, that is power. >> what does that say about us? >> that's a --

>> fascinating. like he would not even know who kim kardashian is. if i pointed out she was on this list he would find that fascinating and troubling about america. >> well, he's not the first, though. >> michael jordan told kids to wear basketball shoes they went and wore his basketball shoes. your father -- maybe in eastern europe. >> yeah. fascinating. >> i don't think your father is passive to the kardashians' focus. >> thank you so much. from "forbes." thank you so much. coming up what can mitt romney take away from his own father's presidential run? '68? talking about that next on "morning joe." dude you don't understand, this is my dad's car.

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but that label can lead to prejudice and discrimination,

and we don't want to go there. so let's try to see people for who they really are. you can help create a more united states. the more you know. time look at the white house. 36 past the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." joining us from baltimore contributing editor of "new york" magazine. latest article, looks at george romney's run for president in 1968 and how that influenced mitt romney's run for the white house this year. it's possible to think of the difference between george and mitt romney as a series of

adapted changes in which the original moderate instincts evolved so completely that mitt's response to a rising and angry conservatism resembles nixon's far more than his father father's. in mitt's politics, his father's progressism become instead an ideological pragmatism of whatever his audience wants to hear. an organization man without ogss. wow. that's one way of putting it. benjamin, welcome to the show. >> so, benjamin, how did the '68 campaign impact mitt romney? we always hear about the father's offhanded remark about being brainwashed in vietnam and therefore mitt romney is always measuring every single word. is that a fair characterization? >> i think there are two ways in which the '68 campaign really matters. one is the lesson that romney takes is a lesson any republican

watching republican history over the last 50 years should take, which is be more like richard nixon. that's the way to win. in a sort of similar political moment, where you have as we said in the piece, a sort of rising and angry conservative feeling, george on these response was to grow sort of more righteously progressive and to become more pro-civil rights. to denounce the colt of rugged individualism as a cover for greed. so this is a very sort of righteous, progressive response. nixon's response is to figure out ways to fold elements of his own persona into things that the conservative base believes and i think you can see some of the similar habits with mitt romney, and so in this, at least, the example of his own father's run in 1968 is sort of a, an sample of what not to do. >> jon meacham, look at these

pictures. it has to be mitt romney breaking away from his father's example. i've never seen a picture of those two together that it's not obvious how much that son loved his dad. there is such a closeness. >> it is amazing, and, you know, i talked to scott romney, mitt's older brother, and he said, you know, look, my father was mitt's hero. he was my hero and he says, look, i think my brother mitt is an exceptional person, but mitt has always said that he's a shadow of his father and there's a veneration and a depth of feeling that mitt has for his father and touching and has come through at every moment of his political career. >> how much of this is a narrative that applies to another family we've spent a lot of time thinking about in american politic, the bushes. >> yeah. >> i thought were you going to say the kardashians, but -- >> mika's trying to be ambassador behind.

that's a different copy. >> how much of romney's -- mitt romney's conservatism is less a reaction to his father and simply a practical reaction to the generational shift in tpart over the last 40 years? >> that's the story. for me, the story of george romney and particularly the story of george romney in 1968 is the story of the collapse of modern republicanism and the emptying out of the certainties that accompanied it, and, you know, by the end of 1968, george romney is a really surprisingly angst alienated president, a speech after the brainwashing fiasco saying the current crisis in america is in some means for him a growing disbelief in some 6 our nation's basic truths. this is a really fundamental alienation and destabilization

that happens. >> there's also, given what happened in romney's later career, he goes into nixon's cabinet as hud secretary and, you know, nixon, we've always looked at as someone who won one way and governed, at least on domestic policy and some foreign policy differently. to what extent do you see the possibility that mitt romney may be that nixon? >> you know, it's really interesting. we've only really barely begun to grapple with what kind of president mitt romney would be, and i think for him, even more so than any other candidate, who runs congress is going to be determinative. if you have houses of congress, you can see romney taking a conservative direction in his presidency. if you have as he had in massachusetts, a fairly liberal democratic-run congress, you can see him doing the same things as in massachusetts, governing as a

modern pragmatist. and we've been looking at his campaign and pointing to for most of the last six months to play out a few different ways, given whatever the dynamics are when he actually becomes president. >> jon meacham, i remember back in 2000, hearing the stories over and over again about how george w. bush was not going to let anybody ever out-texas him and learned lessons from his father, being the moderate northeast elite, and he learned those lessons. soup sounds like mitt romney has learned those lessons from a man he loves and respect it's and not allowing anybody to paint him into the corner either. >> it's fair to say mitt romney's 1968 was george w. bush's 1992. >> the latest issue of "new york" magazine. ben min wallace wel

benjamin wallace-wells. coming up, rare animals. brian shactman joins the table next. >> brian! [ male announcer ] whoa, megan landry alert. and she's looking directly at your new lumia, thank you at&t. first, why don't you show her the curved edge... now move on to the slick navigation tiles -- bam, right into the people hub. see megan, colin has lots of friends. hey, colin, what kind of phone is that?

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i knew it'd be tough on our retirement savings, especially in this economy. but with three kids, being home more really helped. man: so we went to fidelity. we talked about where we were and what we could do. we changed our plan and did something about our economy.

now we know where to go for help if things change again. call or come in today to take control of your personal economy. get free one-on-one help from america's retirement leader. -- friday went public making the company worth an estimated $ $104 billion. though i don't know if you can really put a price tag on watching your high school friends slowly get fatter. >> with us now, brian shactman. >> oh, my gosh. one way to put it. >> the facebook ipo, morgan stanley had to rush in at the end of the day on friday to make

sure the stock didn't lose money, as did others. not ap great launch. >> it's trading now. why i brought that out, under $37 in the pre-market trade. $1-plus below the trade. it's a mess. not a disaster. let people modify orders up to the open, overwhelmed, couldn't process it. the other side, people have to understand this company's been trading for a while now on the private market. so when they set the ipo price, $28, went up to $38, first trade, $42. facebook people made money, bankers made money, the institutions and the mom and pops are getting a raw deal. people said i want to be in on it. it's a $100 billion company. 25 times the revenue. it it goes up 40%, is this really a $140 billion company? no. they're at peak at $104 billion if that. >> that's going down, man. it's going down. >> you think it's the next

myspace? >> no, i don't. not the next myspace. they've got a lot of customers and a lot of brilliant people running the company. it's not the next myspace, but it is -- it is wildly overpriced. let's change topics. >> sure. >> you've got this special that's coming up about exotic animals. remember in zanesville, ohio, 56 exotic animals released. real tragedy. this happens a lot more than we know about. >> seven states, talking off-camera, there are no rules. literally buy a tiger at auction and have it in your backyard or wherever. >> willie's got one. >> a tiger is worth more dead than alive. if you know how to move it -- buy one for 25 bucks. >> how you buy it and how you move it, b. >> in missouri there's one really well-known and you can pays 25 $25 or $5,000.

asia, where a lot of this comes from. the rhino horn piece a couple months back. rhino -- seven-pound rhino horn worth a lot. in vietnam they think it cures cancer. a bizarre situation, and wherever there's money involved we take a look. found out the illegal trade is $20 billion a year. people smuggling -- $20 billion? >> come on. >> you could be sitting next to somebody in first class. >> with a bird in their sock. >> that's true. >> and they could be people, store lizards in their pants. >> no! i don't want to hear about their private life. >> willie, not a limped in hi pants, but dangerous trade. stop it. here we go. >> identify the species, determine the cause of death and work with investigators to uncover potential criminal activity. >> our domestic beetle room. these guys have a -- >> stinks in here.

>> it does, but you get used to it quickly. >> whew! >> they got an important job, which is eat meat off of bones. >> so you throw a carcass or something in there. >> yep. >> the beetles eat it and then you take it out and study it. >> yeah. we now have a nice, clean skull we can identify. >> takes these beetles two weeks to clean a carcass. >> looks like a bullet at that point. tough for us to work had the tissue and everything been around the skull. >> with all the modern technology we have right now to clean a specimen, it takes thousands of beetles? >> brian was about to throw up. >> if i was an actor, i definitely almost threw up. >> puked. >> that's the people who handle this. >> just to be clear. a civilian could walk up to an auction in missouri, wherever it is, me, and buy a tiger? >> if you live in a state that doesn't have regulation. new york, you can't do that. >> background in dealing with

animals? anybody can walk up? >> some people, generally speaking no onerous rules against you owning something like that. >> buy a tiger, put him in your subaru and drive on? >> dangerous trade. exotic animals premieres tonight at 9:00 on cnbc. brian shactman. great to see you here in person. >> thank you, brian. more "morning joe" in just a moment. [ female announcer ] the best way to predict the future... ...is to create it. [ female announcer ] now create a new future for your skin. only aveeno positively radiant has total soy, for a whole new level of radiance. it's clinically proven to visibly reduce blotchiness, brown spots, and other past damage, while broad spectrum spf 30 helps prevent future damage. healthier, more radiant skin. it's in your future now. [ female announcer ] positively radiant. and for brighter skin, try skin brightening daily scrub. only from aveeno.

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on tomorrow's show is republican senator tom coburn of oklahoma joins us. up next, what if anything did we learn today? here's your business travel forecast. moisture moving up the eastern seaboard. the beautiful weather of the weekend is a thing of the past. expecting showers and thunderstorms along i-95 from boston down to providence, hartford, new york, new haven, areas like d.c. could see showers and thunderstorms even detroit and atlanta slight chance of storms while the west remains dry. i love cash back.

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cymbalta is not approved for children under 18. people taking maois or thioridazine or with uncontrolled glaucoma should not take cymbalta. taking it with nsaid pain relievers, aspirin, or blood thinners may increase bleeding risk. severe liver problems, some fatal, were reported. signs include abdominal pain and yellowing skin or eyes. tell your doctor about all your medicines, including those for migraine and while on cymbalta, call right away if you have high fever, confusion and stiff muscles or serious allergic skin reactions like blisters, peeling rash, hives, or mouth sores to address possible life-threatening conditions. talk about your alcohol use, liver disease and before you reduce or stop cymbaa.lt dizziness or fainting may occur upon standing. ask your doctor about cymbalta. imagine you with less pain. cymbalta can help. go to cymbalta.com to learn about a free trial offer. time now to talk about what we learned today. joe, what did you learn?

>> we have time -- talking about this "snl" and jason sudeikis sulking in the background. >> wasn't sulking, maybe emotional because he's going to miss her. >> the "new york times" says, confirm, an apparent fayweir we star. >> gave samberg a little something. >> the book. >> sudeikis didn't even have a skit. >> i can't imagine -- they have to have him. >> what will they do? >> he's mitt romney. >> and he's biden. >> a great biden. >> please, stay. >> front page, "new york times," a great piece about aqua packs and got a fan base online. >> he does. >> that guy -- >> good, front page of the "times." >> i learned that they milk a story. >> that mika has a kind of deep and abiding policy interest in the